S6 E05: Cultivating Leadership

[00:00:00] Wright: What makes a great leader in today's episode, leaders in Dentistry share their experiences, their key advice, and the resources that help them boost those skills. I'm Dr. ArNelle Wright.

[00:00:13] Ioannidou: And I'm Dr. Effie Ioannidou, and I'm super excited. To hear from our guests today. I know. So, you know I think this is a very important topic and whether you are leading a team or you're starting a career, or you are diving into real skills that sets strong leaders apart, this is how we can help you.

We can, we can all cultivate the skills together and we can try to learn from our guests today. So, let's get started.

[00:00:52] Announcer: From the 糖心logo, this is Dental Sound Bites created four dentists by dentists. Ready? Let's dive right into real talk on dentistry's daily wins and sticky situations.

[00:01:09] Wright: Well, hey, hey everyone. Our topic today is one that I'm really, really passionate about and that's leadership. We have an incredible list of guests who are going to be sharing their stories and background in the hopes that it connects and inspires our audience.

[00:01:24] Ioannidou: Hello everybody. Hello, ArNelle. So nice seeing you again.

[00:01:28] Wright: Hey, again.

[00:01:30] Ioannidou: Yes, yes, yes. We have so many great stories today and we have so many great experiences to share with our guest leaders, but also some of our own personal stories. Right? We always do this, so we have the honor to have with us today, our own 糖心logoInterim Executive Director, Dr. Betsy Shapiro. Hey, hey!

[00:01:56] Shapiro: Hey, hey. Thank you so much. I think this is going to be fun because I already feel like I'm part of this group.

[00:02:06] Wright: We are so glad to have you here.

[00:02:08] Ioannidou: Yeah, I know, I know. We are so happy to have you and we have so many things to ask you. Actually, I have so many questions. I really do. So let's get started.

So before we do this, give us a little bit of your background, how long you have been involved with the 糖心logoanything, anything that you would like to share about yourself.

[00:02:30] Shapiro: Certainly. I will tell you that I was introduced to dentistry at a very young age because I'm the daughter of a dentist and I am one of seven children. We all had to work in the office, mostly unpaid labor because if this was what was putting food on our table, we needed to contribute. So, you know, you, depending on your skillset and your interest—mowed the lawn, shoveled the sidewalk, painted something. I personally cleaned bathrooms, then learned to file records, you know, and then kept moving up through. I was one of seven, I have a sister who became a dental hygienist. I was the other one who was interested in dentistry as a career. So moved from school undergraduate into dental school and then ended up going back to my same hometown to practice.

My father had passed away when I was in high school, so he was not part of the practice, but it was the same practice. You know, I cleaned bathrooms and cleaned teeth and there we go.

I practiced general dentistry in rural Illinois for about 14 years. Had a disability challenge so decided that that was the point in time when I should be looking at doing something else for the rest of my career.

And here's your tip—always keep disability insurance. So, I used my disability insurance and I went to law school.

I had always been interested in that and I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do after law school. I aas not particularly interested in traditional law. Wasn't really interested in malpractice—which is what everyone thinks when you're any type of medical background and you go to law school. “Oh you're going to do malpractice.” I'm like, “no, probably not.” And as fortune would have it, I was done with law school and trying to figure out next steps, and the 糖心logowas sponsoring a Hillenbrand Fellowship at that time and it was open to one dentist from across the nation who was transitioning from private practice to anything else, and you didn't have to know what you were transitioning into. But you got to experience an immersion in association management for a year. You had to produce one product or service or something by the end of your year, but you got the access to the resources of the 糖心logoto do this and it had to benefit the public or the profession or the 糖心logomembership itself and you also got to take any courses within reason that fit in with what it seemed like your interests were building toward. So that's how I landed at the 糖心logoabout 14 years ago, and frankly just never left. It was that association immersion part that captured me and I'm still being immersed. I'm being immersed from the top now with the fire hose before it was a trickle. So that's where I got where I was. Interesting fact—through my career at the ADA, there was a very short period of time where I got to be a podcast host. So that quite a while ago, not quite a while ago, it seems like it, it was pre pandemic, but I was the host of “Beyond the Mouth”, which was a practice management oriented podcast for the 糖心logoand you can still find it out there if you dig around and listen to me all over again if anybody wants to, but I'm not trying to steal your listenership. We ran that for a while.

[00:05:46] Ioannidou: How was the podcast experience at the time? Like how, how did you like this communication through the podcast?

[00:05:52] Shapiro: Oh, you all are way fancier. You know, we were, we joke that we had kind of eggshell crate foam walls we put around us. We did not have, you know, we sometimes we're working with a telephone and so the sound was not that great, but I will say this—we had a lot of fun and we talked to some really great guests.

Just, you know, like you two. You learn things every single time when you're the host. It's amazing and then we see so many areas our lives intersect with our guests that I was like, “oh, look at that connection.” Who even knew that when we started this? So it was very fun and I get the sense that you two have that same experience when I listened to you.

[00:06:35] Wright: Yeah, I would say so, wouldn't you?

[00:06:36] Ioannidou: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent the pleasure that I have to host this with ArNelle, who is so much younger and so much fresher and so much energetic.

[00:06:47] Shapiro: Yes.

[00:06:48] Wright: I feel like we pull from each other, actually. We pull and pour into each other.

[00:06:52] Ioannidou: Yeah, but I want to say, go back to your story and I mean, what an interesting story and what I keep out of this, at least for me, I mean, there are a lot of excellent points in that, but I think that what our audience, and especially our more junior, newly practicing dentists that, you know, from a different generation, if you will, I think a good lesson is that we have to be resilient, right?

[00:07:18] Shapiro: Absolutely.

[00:07:19] Ioannidou: Things happen in life and we have to bounce back. We need to bounce back.

[00:07:24] Shapiro: Yep. Refocus, pivot, whatever you want to be flexible about, about who you are, what you are, what you do, and be open. You never know what's going to happen.

[00:07:37] Ioannidou: Exactly. And this may be one important leadership skill.

[00:07:42] Wright: I was just going to say.

[00:07:43] Ioannidou: Right. The flexibility and the fact that you can pivot, right. Anytime something unexpected happens.

[00:07:51] Shapiro: I think so.

[00:07:52] Wright: I was also going to say, to your point, Dr. Effie, these are definitely leading into my question, which is all about your leadership toolkit. So how would you define your leadership style and if you had any guiding principle or your North Star that you could share for yourself that we could glean from, what would that be?

[00:08:13] Shapiro: Okay. Let's start with I'm a serendipitous leader. It wasn't, you know, when I looked at my life's goals early on or even as you refresh and you look at your goals through different stages—I never had be the executive director of the 糖心logoin that box that I needed to check off. But what I always had was things that spoke to me. On a broader level that then leadership fed for me. So honesty, loyalty, integrity, communication, all of those things were part of who I was and service to others. So when you combine all those, you can find ways, and I've always found ways to do that. Honestly, very often in a, you know, lower range.

It was being a program chair and I don't mean to diminish that at all, but I mean just little tasks here and there, what you had time for, what you had capacity for, and then those start building up and started building up into bigger and bigger leadership roles that serendipitously found me, more than I found them. And maybe it was a combination of right place, right time, maybe it was a combination of always being curious and interested and then someone saw me looking and said, “hey you” or just persistence showing up and doing your job. In terms of how I lead, I am much more of a team leadership collaborative style than a top-down style.

We've heard it said, or some of our volunteer leadership says this all the time, the smartest person in the room is often in the room. I firmly believe that, particularly in the role I'm in now, I cannot know everything and I have wonderful people who know much more than I do and so you have to be able to listen and you have to be able to respect what everyone brings to the table, learn from it, good or bad and then make decisions based on that, but always with input from others. Certain times you have to be the decider that's always part of being the leader, but I've listened to everyone and this seems to be the way we're going to go. So we're going to go.

[00:10:36] Wright: I love that.

[00:10:36] Ioannidou: This is so great. And I like that you brought up the values of honesty and authenticity in this and the good communication.

Recently, I was, I think she's all over the news now. The New Zealand Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, uh, who is now in Boston and teaching at Harvard. I think, but they asking her left and right about leadership skills and the way that she chose to, her style and the way that she chose to lead, and she was talking about kindness, being a kind leader, being a compassionate leader, and being a team leader. Exactly what you just mentioned, so it makes me wonder, maybe this is what we bring in the room and which is great because it brings teams together easier than that top-down thing. I don't know, I'm just wondering out loud.

[00:11:36] Shapiro: Yeah, fascinating, it could. I will tell you, something years ago that was said to me, my mother, who said it to all of her children—I think I had repeated something that was more along the line of gossip than along the line of something and she said, “Betsy, try to remember when you talk about something, is it true? Is it necessary? And is it kind?”

[00:12:02] Ioannidou: Oh, so smart.

[00:12:04] Shapiro: “It may not always be kind, but in those instances it better be true and it better be necessary if you have to say something unkind.” I've always remembered that and do my best.

[00:12:18] Wright: That's very good.

[00:12:19] Ioannidou: Oh, that's so great. Oh my God. Now I will remember it forever, that's a great advice. That's a great advice and I cannot—and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are wondering about this, so I really, really want to face the elephant in the room and forgive me if I have to do this, but let's break the silence here. So, the 糖心logohas been through some, uh, really, really big changes recently, right?

A lot of people are thinking about this. A lot of people are wondering, so how are you using the leadership skills that we just discussed about to address these big changes in the 糖心logoand move the organization forward?

[00:13:09] Shapiro: It is a question that is being asked. You're right, and it is a question that deserves to be answered, so I think that we look first to my team, collaborative spirit of things, knowing that there are many people out there who know things that I need to know, and I need to learn them fast. You know, this was not an anticipated change for me necessarily and so I want to learn what I need to learn. Learn truth, is it true? Is it necessary to do this thing? And then can I do it with kindness? So you have that.

Something I didn't mention earlier when we were talking about leadership toolkit, and particularly important here, is transparency. You know, and that that sticks to kind of the truthfulness of things. There are, in my personal life, I would not tell you that in my personal life and in my personal core values, transparency is one of them. I tend to be a very private person. I, whatever I share is honest and authentic, but I don't overshare by any means. I'm, you know, I kind of keep my own counsel most of the time. Drives my husband crazy sometimes, but we've worked it out.

But when you are in a leadership position, you have to be transparent because how do people know whether or not they want to follow you, if you are not being open, honest, transparent about where we're going, why we're getting there? And so that's been something that's been very, very necessary here. Not just from me, but from the 糖心logoacross the board. We've been doing so many things at the 糖心logoprior to my being into this role, incredible things, but doing them fast, furious and not communicating well about them and so, we need to be transparent and communicate about them in a very truthful manner, and that is something that is a hallmark for me going forward and the 糖心logoteam all know that. That this is how we operate. The board certainly wants to be in that position and is working very hard to be in that position and be that it will be a while to rebuild trust. It just will, um, you know, that's human nature. We tend, especially dentists, I think, and maybe I'm wrong about this, so you tell me what your perceptions are—but I think we tend to be a very trusting profession.

People trust us. We trust them. We trust our patients to say, this is where it hurts, or we trust them to say, honestly, I can't afford that, what else can we do? And they trust us in return when we tell them, here's what we can do feasibly. “No, you are 82, we can't make you look like your high school graduation photo anymore, but we can do this”, whatever it is, but once that trust is endangered in any way, you know, we're all. Human nature is, I'm not going to give that back to you again, so readily. I need to have proof and so we hope that everyone is listening. We hope that, you know, everyone on either side of any conversation is presuming good intent and acting in an ethical manner and being as transparent on every side of a conversation so that we can work together to be in a much better place and I think we can do that. I think we can, it'll take a little time.

[00:16:44] Wright: Yeah,

[00:16:44] Ioannidou: For sure.

[00:16:45] Wright: Thank you so much for sharing that. Go ahead, Dr. Effie.

[00:16:48] Ioannidou: No, I was thinking that, you know, for sure, I think that when big changes happen, big decisions need to take place and I think people, the membership, I'm sure that they are ready to rebuild, this trust because everybody wants to be part of the 糖心logoand everybody wants to trust the idea. So if you come from this perspective and this point of view, I think you allow some time and this will naturally come. That's my, uh, that's my prediction, my kind prediction.

[00:17:21] Shapiro: I want to come true.

[00:17:22] Wright: I agree.

[00:17:23] Shapiro: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:24] Wright: We're just all going to attract and manifest it together.

[00:17:27] Shapiro: Yes.

[00:17:27] Wright: I was just going to say thank you so much for that, Dr. Shapiro and to your point, as you all were talking about some leadership, I guess skills or qualities that you have in your toolkit. I am drawn to a quote by Brené Brown where she says “clear as kind” and so with all that the 糖心logois facing, it may not seem like it's kind, but I think with clarity in, you know, communication and correspondence to your point, that translates into kindness definitely for me. So I hope it's the same way for our listeners and our community as well.

[00:18:01] Shapiro: I love that And I love her, but I just, I hadn't, I don't remember reading that part or hearing that part. So now now I have that. Thank you.

[00:18:10] Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She always says clear as kind. So that's one of the things that I hold onto is just like a short quote, but it's very impactful too.

[00:18:19] Ioannidou: We will be right back.

[00:18:22] Announcer Ad: 糖心logoMember Advantage endorsed Best Card has saved dentists an average of more than $5,000 per year on credit card processing fees. Find out how much your practice can save with a free analysis from Best Card at bestcardteam.com/ADA.

[00:18:41] Announcer Ad 2: Need a snack to pair with your podcast? Grab something from your new fridge. 糖心logomembers get member only savings on select GE appliances, including Profile, Cafe, GE Monogram, and Hot Point appliances. Visit ADA.org/ge to get the special authorization code to access your savings.

[00:19:06] Ioannidou: Welcome back to Dental Sound Bites. Today we are diving into the importance of leadership skills every dentist needs to navigate and shape the future of the professions with Dr. Betsy Shapiro.

[00:19:19] Wright: Well, as everybody can see, there's definitely a lot to navigate. In all situations when you're in a leadership position and we want to take a break really quickly.

For anyone that's looking for a great place to start, we have a resource for you here embedded in this episode. If you're interested in honing your leadership skills. We invited a graduate of the 糖心logoLeadership Institutes to tell us more about her experience with that program and share her advice.

So go ahead and take a listen.

[00:19:50] Jouzy: Hi, how are you? My name is Dr. Yanina Jouzy, and I am originally from Guadalajara, Mexico. I am the owner and founder of a startup practice in San Dimas for 15 years. I am currently the president of the Diverse Dental Society and the Secretary for the Hispanic Dental Association.

I immigrated to the United States in 2000 and it only took me eight years to become a licensed dentist in the U.S. The reason why I'm so passionate about leadership and mentoring, it's because it reminds me of the struggles that I faced while achieving my American dream.

How do these struggles look like? English is not my first language. I left my family behind. I had to learn a new culture. Therefore, my passion has arose. From there, the struggles that I lived and the challenges, and today I want to ensure that I use my superpowers that I've learned over the years to inspire and empower other generations. Other Latinas or women that want to be in the field of dentistry and make sure that they can create an impact for our communities. My experience at the 糖心logoLeadership Institute was one of a kind. I am so honored and proud to have been part of this program.

Why do I say that? Well, first of all, the 糖心logo is the umbrella and who represents all the dentists in the United States, and just the fact that they have a program like this that is focused to empower and create wonderful leaders. For me, it's very impactful. I have learned many skills, but other than the skills. My biggest takeaway has been the network and the support that I've had during the program and the years after to come.

You know, we have these round tables that I will still remember where we did like learning skills. That was just fantastic and perfecting my leadership style because I think as leaders, we all have a certain style, but we have to be aware that there's always some tweaks, right? And we have to be open to recognizing, so perfecting my leadership skills and learning my specific leadership style was wonderful. After I graduated from this program, I really saw the impact in my career now, seriously, it's like skyrocketing.

The opportunities have been nonstop. Today I am an alternate delegate for the ADA. As I mentioned, the secretary for the Hispanic Dental Association and I am mentoring students that are having many challenges while in dental school. We all need mentors, now I have amazing mentors until today and now I'm a mentor for many others. So just keep in mind, that leadership comes in handy with mentorship and that you're always going to need that support and that hand. I could just tell everybody, you know, be bold, just apply, have the courage to learn something new. Leave fear on a side and just put yourself out there.

[00:23:37] Ioannidou: What a great experience to share.

[00:23:39] Wright: Exactly.

[00:23:40] Ioannidou: I think it's so important to speak about these experiences in leadership institutes. I mean, yeah, our guest discussed about the 糖心logoLeadership Institute.

I want to share that I had similar experiences at the ADEA Leadership Institute a few years ago, 10 years ago, but it was great.

[00:23:57] Wright: Not that long ago. There you go.

[00:23:59] Ioannidou: Not that long. It's like yesterday. Yeah. I really had very similar experiences. As a matter of fact, last week I was invited to give a talk at the Academy of Prosthodontists. Oh wow. And one of the leaders there was my classmate from the 糖心logoleadership, Dr. Heather Conard, so it was great to meet here. And it made me think about the value of this opportunity, the value of the institute. Number one, you know, obviously we learn a lot of, uh, we acquired a lot of leadership skills for sure. We had the opportunity to meet with a lot of deans at the time, but also made great friendships. Oh my God. Great friendships.

[00:24:42] Wright: Yeah. That have lasted very long. Seems like since you ran into another colleague.

[00:24:47] Ioannidou: Yeah, and a lot of laughter. I can tell you, I literally, I remember vividly and I was sharing with Heather. I vividly remember there was a day that we were laughing so hard that I pee a little.

[00:25:02] Wright: I wasn't expecting that. Oh my gosh.

[00:25:04] Shapiro: I personally believe laughter is key to succeeding anywhere in life. Exactly. And it sounds like you were a great success.

[00:25:12] Ioannidou: Yes, for sure.

[00:25:13] Wright: You're supposed to get one belly laugh a day, so I'm sure that day you got it for a couple of days, uh, maybe a week or so.

[00:25:21] Shapiro: The collegiality though, that you addressed out of that is I think so amazing. And, and that's been my experience all throughout, you know, private practice, and then even in coming to work at the ADA. I meet people from across the country that, but for, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, we are still friends.

We might have been in some or served on some committee together or as you got to do the institute. That's one of the b est parts of it all. There's a lot of good things, but that's one of the best parts.

[00:25:51] Ioannidou: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[00:25:53] Wright: I haven't gone through it yet, so I'm gonna have to get the experience so that I can have a little bit more to weigh in.

But I have heard amazing things. And from some of our past guests that we've had here on the podcast about this leadership institute. So I'm super excited that the program still exists.

Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] Ioannidou: Yeah. And you know, this is great. It's really nice to have opportunities for leadership training, and these opportunities, I strongly believe that should start in the dental school.

And sometimes they do, not always, they do start in the dental school sometimes. So I think it's, it's important for our students and graduates to know that there are opportunities like this in dentistry. It's not only the, you know, one way solo practice route. Although even in this route you can build leadership skills and you can be the leader in your community.

But we have asked Dr. Ric Valachovic, clinical professor and executive director of the NYU Dentistry Center for Oral Health Policy and Management to tell us about the future of leadership and how it is when it starts early. And so, let's take a listen.

[00:27:08] Valachovic: Hi, thanks for having me on the episode today. My name is Dr. Richard Valachovic, and I'm professor and chair of the Department of General Dentistry and Comprehensive Care at the NYU College of Dentistry, here in New York. I'm a pediatric dentist by training and started my academic career at the Harvard School Dental Medicine. I then served for 22 years as president and CEO of the American Dental Education Association in Washington DC, and then joined the faculty at NYU.

I've dedicated most of my career to dental education and leadership development, which led me to focus on how we can better prepare the next generation of dental professionals. I believe in the importance of cultivating leaders for the dental profession while they're still in dental school because students graduating today will likely practice through 2064.

We're preparing students for a 40-year career and they're gonna face unprecedented challenges. In technology, practice models, demographics, and healthcare delivery. Think about what's happened with artificial intelligence in just the last couple of years. The number of jobs that it created, the number of jobs that has taken away, the key role that AI has played in dentistry already, particularly in terms of diagnosis and treatment, planning.

The pillars of our profession, ethics, professionalism, leadership, and excellence, serve as timeless compasses, and we need to intentionally develop leaders who can navigate these changes while upholding the principles that we hold so dearly. My experience in various leadership roles has shown me that early intervention and leadership development is crucial to securing our profession's future.

The most pressing issue facing our profession is the development of leaders for our future. Just consider the rapid expansion in dental education with 76 CODA approved programs compared to 53 in 1996, and there are five more universities planning to open dental schools in the next three years. This creates a significant demand for experienced leaders in academic dentistry at every level, from junior faculty to the dean suite.

In parallel, the US military, with over two and a half million personnel worldwide, will continue to require dental officers to lead at all levels from individual bases to top command structures. The growth of more than a thousand dental support organizations, DSO’s and large corporate group practices, has created a pressing need for leadership throughout their organizational frameworks, nonprofit, dental associations and organizations in the U.S., also depend on capable leaders to address their unique challenges effectively.

The ADA, for example, has created the Leadership Institute. That's a wonderful example of the ways in which organized dentistry can respond to this compelling need for leaders as well.

So, I'd like to leave listeners with a roadmap to help them meet the needs of our profession's future. What are the kinds of attributes that really are important in the development of leaders? Leaders need to develop adaptability and resilience to embrace rapid changes. We can't be so structured in our approaches. We really need to be adaptable, able to move in directions that will improve our ability to respond to these changes that are coming.

We need to build interprofessional collaboration skills to integrate oral health with overall healthcare. The mouth has been separated from the rest of the body in terms of healthcare for centuries. How do we bring the body and the mouth back together again? Inflammation is inflammation no matter where it occurs in the body, and we need to keep that in mind and continue to move dentistry closer to overall healthcare.

We need to ground our practices in ethics and integrity through sharpening our vision and strategic thinking, to anticipate changes before they are manifest. We need to improve our advocacy skills if we're going to be able to navigate an increasingly politicized society. We need to be able to come to conversations and debates with ability to listen and to respond in civilized ways.

We need to commit to lifelong learning in this era of rapidly expanding knowledge and finally pursuing strategic alliances. Throughout my career, I've focused on a motto that I refer to as the relentless pursuit of strategic alliances. We need to be able to be at the table to engage with others in strategic ways.

We can't do it alone. Dentistry is a small profession. We need to find alliances wherever we can. To learn more about this topic and our approach, I encourage you to read my full article in the Winter 2025 Issue of the Journal of the American College of Dentists. I'm also very happy to share information about our leadership programs at NYU.

Please visit our website at dental.nyu.edu. And please feel free to contact me at rwv212@nyu.edu. I'm always eager to connect with colleagues who share my passion for developing the next generation of dental leaders and to explore potential collaborations that can further advance our profession.

So thanks very much for having me today.

[00:32:48] Ioannidou: That's really good.

[00:32:50] Wright: That was really good. And I love that he touched on some of the skills that we've already covered. So like that resilience, that adaptability, all of those skills that are needed in different aspects of dentistry. And I really agree, especially as an early career dentist.

I'm close towards the end of being an early career dentist, but nonetheless, by ADA's definition, I'm still early career. And I really believe that these skills should really start to be introduced or spoken about even more in dental school. I feel like if you have like a natural knack for leadership, sometimes you may not appreciate it if it's discussed that much.

But for me I try and really embed myself into these leadership discussions, 'cause there's always more to learn, whether it's through conversations like this or a book, a podcast or any other type of medium.

[00:33:43] Ioannidou: I completely agree with you. I really liked, I enjoyed the point that Dr. Valachovic made. But I want to say, I just, I was expecting one more, one more challenge that, you know, when he started speaking about the 76, is it 76? Yes. Schools, dental schools now, I was hoping that he will bring up the unsustainable dental school debt. So, the financial burden. Mm-hmm. Right?

Yes. I was hoping that he will bring this up, because I do remember that when he was the executive director of ADEA, he was discussing about this very openly, and I think it's something that, I don't know, I'm sure a lot of newly practicing dentists Have this burden. Right?

[00:34:35] Wright: Right here. New practice owner over here.

[00:34:37] Ioannidou: Yes. Yeah.

[00:34:38] Wright: In addition to student loan debt.

[00:34:39] Ioannidou: What do you think, Dr. Shapiro? I mean, it is something that it's one of the important challenges, right?

[00:34:45] Shapiro: it's a very important challenge and we have been talking about this for such a long time. And debt keeps increasing, and I recognize everything is proportional to, you know, the economy at the time and all of those things.

[00:35:03] Wright: It's a key challenge.

[00:35:04] Shapiro: We have to find a way to make it affordable to not impact major life choices by the costs of your student debt. And I don't know the answer, this is, but.

It's definitely a conversation that has to keep going and has to come to some kind of resolution at some point. I, and I, again, I don't know that answer, but I wish, I wish I did, and I think we, if we work together hard enough and long enough, we can find at least ways to minimize things to make it better.

I don't know that we can ever cure it, but we can at least make it better.

[00:35:46] Ioannidou: Yes, for sure.

[00:35:48] Wright: You're gonna have to be strong in advocacy.

[00:35:49] Shapiro: Yep. Exactly.

[00:35:51] Ioannidou: Absolutely. And I have to say that all the points that he made were amazing, and I really liked the point about bringing the mouth back to the body and we discussed about this in, you know, again and again, and I think it's really important.

But I hear that you have a very powerful story about the impact dentist can have. And I want to ask you about this, and I want you to tell us about the dozen roses. I love this title.

[00:36:23] Shapiro: I will tell you about the dozen roses and I'll tell you that it was one of the most impactful episodes of my practice career ever in that. I had a patient, had been my patient for a while, um, young-ish, state trooper from Illinois, very vital, very fit, very whatever, you know. Came and didn't love coming to the dentist, but I think his wife made him come every six months and he faithfully did.

And he, you know, he did his best but he just, it wasn't his favorite thing. And he was due back in, and my hygienist had, was taking care of him first, and she came to get me. And when she came to get me, she said, just check something for me. There's a little spot. And I said, sure. You know?

And so she, she saw it first. I saw it second. You know, tiny, tiny, tiny little lesion on the side of his tongue. And, you know, go through the same questionnaire, right? How have you noticed this? How long have you thought he maybe bit his tongue? It felt a little rough to him. All the things that you think, oh dear, and had a history of a smoker, of being a smoker.

So combine all of those and, and we, I was fairly certain that this was something, this was not nothing. And because I knew going to the dentist wasn't his favorite thing, and because I knew he was, um, state trooper in a high pressure job that, you know, had a lot of commitments, I wanted to make sure he went.

So we of course, called and set up that appointment for him with him standing there. But, um, and I, he was toward the end of the day, and I can remember leaving my practice later that day, probably 40 minutes later, and he's sitting in our parking lot and he's smoking a cigarette. I said, what, what are you doing?

And he said, probably the last one I'll ever have. But I just wanted to have it 'cause I know, I know what you think, you know, and I know what there I'm going to learn. And in fact, it was, it was oral cancer. Yeah. Fairly aggressive. But they were able to remove it.

He did lose part of his tongue. He lost his sense of taste. He lost his sense of smell, which he later got some of that back. But, you know, all those complications of things that can happen but survived able to eat, able to speak, able to do all those things. And every year, every year till I left practice, a dozen roses showed up for a dental hygienist and a dozen roses showed up for me on the anniversary of that diagnosis.

[00:39:10] Ioannidou: Wow. Well, such a nice story.

[00:39:13] Shapiro: Yeah. Very special. And he became the biggest advocate for going to the dentist that you ever knew after that.

[00:39:21] Wright: I bet. Yeah.

[00:39:22] Shapiro: You know, it is, you recognize the value when you face those challenges.

[00:39:28] Ioannidou: Oh, this is an amazing story. What an impact, right?

[00:39:30] Shapiro: Yeah.

[00:39:31] Ioannidou: And what an amazing hygienist brought you into it.

[00:39:35] Shapiro: Yes. So, see? Team. Team, right?

[00:39:38] Ioannidou: Yeah, for sure.

[00:39:39] Wright: Well, I have one final question, Dr. Shapiro. And this is just gonna be one nice way for us to wrap up our conversation and give our listeners some solid takeaways. So knowing all that you know and what you do know, what advice would you give or leave to your younger self when you started as a dentist?

[00:40:00] Shapiro: I think that I would tell myself to not be defined by what I do, but be defined by who I am. And that ties back to facing some disability challenges and thinking, but I'm a dentist. What if, what am I If I cannot practice dentistry? and having to think, Nope, that's, that is what I do, but who I am is different, and how do I use who I am elsewhere.

[00:40:36] Ioannidou: That's, that's really nice. That's really nice.

[00:40:39] Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Especially in this day and age, like we can use multiple skills, we can be multi-passionate, and I think we just have more permission to do so. Like in today's society, right?

[00:40:52] Shapiro: I think so.

[00:40:53] Ioannidou: That's really nice. Very, very, very nice and very deep. That's deep. That's like Brene Brown deep.

[00:41:01] Shapiro: Oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Never. Never, never. But thank you for saying that?

[00:41:07] Ioannidou: I think so. I think so. What did you say? What was the other thing? Clean and what?

[00:41:12] Wright: Clear is kind.

[00:41:14] Ioannidou: Clear, clear is kind. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clear, kind. I will remember this. Yes.

[00:41:17] Shapiro: Clear as kind, clear is kind. See, that's my takeaway.

[00:41:21] Announcer: On the next Dental Sound Bites.

[00:41:23] Wright: Uncomfortable conversations, sticky situations, cringe-worthy moments, and the million dollar question, what's the right thing to do? We're gonna be exploring all the ethics of your dental dilemmas.

Well, it's truly been wonderful having you here on Dental Sound Bites today. Before you go, can you please tell our listeners how they can connect with you, follow you, and reach out to you if they want to learn more about leadership?

[00:41:55] Shapiro: Absolutely. So I am a little bit, as I've said, in my private life, I'm a little more, a little less transparent. I am not so much out there on social media, and I know I need to be better about that just for the role I'm in, and for the time I'm in. But that does not mean you cannot reach me. I don't hide entirely. I am always available to anyone who wants to reach out to me.

You know, via email, which Shapiro E for Elizabeth, not Betsy, but shapiroe@ada.org anytime. Um, there is of course, 糖心logoFacebook, 糖心logoTwitter, you know, reach out to me through there and I will undoubtedly get the message because I do follow all those and, you know, chime in every so often. So happy to connect with people in that way.

[00:42:44] Wright: I like that.

[00:42:45] Shapiro: And if you happen to be in the 糖心logoLeadership Institute, I drop by there every so often. So hopefully we'll get to say hello to some of you then.

[00:42:53] Ioannidou: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[00:42:54] Shapiro: No, thank you. It was a pleasure.

[00:42:56] Wright: Thank you so much.

[00:42:58] Ioannidou: And to our listeners, we are going to link all these resources and the information that Dr. Shapiro mentioned in this episode to our show notes on the ada.org/podcast.

[00:43:11] Wright: And if you like this episode and if you found it interesting, please make sure you share it with a friend. Then we want you to be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening. So that you can get all of the latest episodes.

[00:43:23] Ioannidou: And don't forget, don't forget to rate the episodes, so write the review and follow us on social media. We do listen.

[00:43:31] Wright: Goodbye everyone.

[00:43:32] Ioannidou: Goodbye.

[00:43:34] Shapiro: Goodbye and thank you again.

[00:43:36] Announcer: Thank you for joining us. Dental Sound Bites is an 糖心logo podcast. You can also find this show resources and more on the 糖心logoMember app and online at ada.org/podcast.